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Post by donavan on Apr 1, 2016 8:53:02 GMT
But when turning off the normal becomes the normal, where do we go from there?
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Post by miles on Apr 1, 2016 21:54:16 GMT
Take a break?
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Post by donavan on Apr 1, 2016 22:12:16 GMT
It's just when you can buy drugs with your bread and milk at the local store, will that stabilize things or take it to another level? Who knows? I don't. And as much as I'm apprehensive, I can see the other side of the argument. Perhaps by making things easily and legally available they become less attractive. Like say, guns. Hang on........
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Post by longinglook on Apr 2, 2016 1:07:11 GMT
It's just when you can buy drugs with your bread and milk at the local store, will that stabilize things or take it to another level? Who knows? I don't. And as much as I'm apprehensive, I can see the other side of the argument. Perhaps by making things easily and legally available they become less attractive. Like say, guns. Hang on........ But you can buy much more dangerous drugs with your bread and milk now! You've just been conditioned to think that buying those drugs is normal, whereas the idea of buying marijuana sounds like some kind of slippery slope.
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Post by donavan on Apr 2, 2016 7:32:37 GMT
It's just when you can buy drugs with your bread and milk at the local store, will that stabilize things or take it to another level? Who knows? I don't. And as much as I'm apprehensive, I can see the other side of the argument. Perhaps by making things easily and legally available they become less attractive. Like say, guns. Hang on........ But you can buy much more dangerous drugs with your bread and milk now! You've just been conditioned to think that buying those drugs is normal, whereas the idea of buying marijuana sounds like some kind of slippery slope. You can buy a whole host of drugs over the counter in America which are only available through a doctor on prescription in the UK. We are dealing with different cultures here, which makes a straight comparison difficult.
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Post by longinglook on Apr 2, 2016 12:52:41 GMT
Alcohol and tobacco are more dangerous drugs than marijuana.
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Post by donavan on Apr 2, 2016 14:45:21 GMT
Alcohol and tobacco are very dangerous and if new to the market today knowing their destructive capabilities would indeed be banned from general sale. But because of their long social standing in everyday life this will never happen. Instead their lack of appeal and in the case of alcohol, responsible use, can only come about through education and not portraying them as glamorous or the expected thing to do. Indeed to a degree this is happening but perhaps not enough. To place another drug out there for general sale without the lessons being learnt re cigarettes and alcohol would in my opinion be unwise.
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Post by miles on Apr 5, 2016 0:15:56 GMT
It's just when you can buy drugs with your bread and milk at the local store, will that stabilize things or take it to another level? Who knows? I don't. And as much as I'm apprehensive, I can see the other side of the argument. Perhaps by making things easily and legally available they become less attractive. Like say, guns. Hang on........ Generally speaking I run out of milk and bread more often than the other. As far as I can tell, the only tangible difference here now, is that the state is collecting taxes instead of all the money staying underground. So like the lottery, it is a voluntary tax (25%) for the schools and other programs. The best argument against pot is its negative effect on child development. So I suspect a lot of public ads and the like telling kids to wait until they are old enough. Of course kids always do what they're told. To be honest, I think it is safer than them getting drunk, but not unproblematic.
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Post by donavan on Apr 5, 2016 8:51:09 GMT
One thing we haven't discussed is price. Over here cigarettes and alcohol are available to buy everywhere. But there is still a thriving underground movement selling booze and cigs. And this is because of price, especially in the case of cigarettes. People don't know exactly what they are buying but because the price is right they take a chance. So does legalising something remove the dealers completely? Probably not. And I guess if they can sell it cheaper than the store, then they still have a market.
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Post by miles on Apr 5, 2016 18:43:19 GMT
One thing we haven't discussed is price. Over here cigarettes and alcohol are available to buy everywhere. But there is still a thriving underground movement selling booze and cigs. And this is because of price, especially in the case of cigarettes. People don't know exactly what they are buying but because the price is right they take a chance. So does legalising something remove the dealers completely? Probably not. And I guess if they can sell it cheaper than the store, then they still have a market. This is the situation here, in that the underground market is vast. The trick with the taxes is that if they are too high, people will go back to the "guy they know" and buy it for less. It is cheaper, but you have less guarantee what it is you are buying, as to its purity and chemical breakdown. So there are MANY people growing and selling illegally even with legal availability. The taxes collected since Jan have been more than they estimated for the whole year, and they will be reduced somewhat. There has also been an increase in tourism to states like Colorado, Washington and Oregon, from people living in the rest of the country. Weed is very popular with baby boomers, with disposable income.
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Post by donavan on Apr 6, 2016 21:30:22 GMT
We'll have to see how things pan out. And hope things don't go to pot. Or do, maybe
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Post by sticksman1 on Apr 7, 2016 12:38:22 GMT
What about the short, medium and long term psychological issues that appear to be increased by the continued use of this? As bad as alcohol is (I have been a recovering alcoholic and tee-total for 30 years and counting) which not only causes mental but physical damage when used heavily, the same can be said for cannabis and the mental conditions it creates through long term use - depression, psychosis/schizophrenia etc? It is, as Don said, a tricky one.
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Post by miles on Apr 7, 2016 19:42:44 GMT
What about the short, medium and long term psychological issues that appear to be increased by the continued use of this? As bad as alcohol is (I have been a recovering alcoholic and tee-total for 30 years and counting) which not only causes mental but physical damage when used heavily, the same can be said for cannabis and the mental conditions it creates through long term use - depression, psychosis/schizophrenia etc? It is, as Don said, a tricky one. We really need more studies. I think it is a similar situation to the individual who can drink moderately and the guy who knows that if he takes 1 drink, all bets are off. There are people who would stay stoned all the time and develop or increase existing mental problems, and also those people like Carl Sagan who found it inspiring and useful in his work. A genetic pre-disposition perhaps? As the genome of marijuana is being mapped, we learn more about the helpful components and can create strains that are more useful medically, and likewise could find what the harmful elements are and breed them out. If it is the harmful elements that make people want to use it, that would be good to know. No one has ever died of a pot overdose. It is hard to imagine that there wouldn't be serious lung damage in heavy smokers, but so far no actual proof. So I would have to say it is objectively safer than alcohol in terms of physical damage. The jury is out on the psychological comparison at this point. Another big step may be coming, that is the reclassification of marijuana from a schedule 1 drug (the same category as heroin) to a schedule 2 drug, which has some medical uses but is also likely to be abused. The scheduling was largely responsible for the lack of a scientific research on this drug, if it is rescheduled it would be a giant step to a more rational policy.
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Post by donavan on Apr 7, 2016 22:00:18 GMT
No one has ever died of a pot overdose.
Maybe not. But people have caused deaths by their reckless actions whilst being stoned. Yes this is down to irresponsibility, just like people who drink and drive. But like all drugs, pot included, there can be and will be some tragic consequences. We must be careful not to romanticize this drug by promoting it's creative qualities, which I find hard to buy into.
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Post by miles on Apr 7, 2016 22:46:01 GMT
Shall we ban cell phones because people text and drive? Many deaths so far. This is the same fallacy of bad drug laws. Driving is the most dangerous thing the average person does every day, and still some people are more worried about terrorists. I don't think people should drink, smoke or text when driving. And don't drive if you are sleep deprived either.
Not trying to say you are wrong about it being harmful, in that depression can lead to suicide, so there may be a link. I do think there is an emotional/moral component to the demonization of pot, that is why we need science to separate myth from reality.
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