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Post by Nonsuch Ned on Jan 31, 2015 22:49:38 GMT
A long time ago, Chrestus asked if I knew a way to archive The Religion Thread from The Back Porch. I thought it was a good idea then, and I still do. But... I still don't know how to go about it, anybody have an idea?
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Post by chrestus on Feb 1, 2015 0:51:35 GMT
We could just start it over, I suppose
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Post by chrestus on Feb 1, 2015 0:52:50 GMT
Believers and non-believers, two sides of the same coin. Both sides want to win. Discuss
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Post by peggs on Feb 1, 2015 1:21:48 GMT
Great gauntlet to be thrown there, chrestus.
I think your statement is too general. While I'm not in the camp of either of the sides mentioned, I've yet to personally meet anyone who is that feels they must 'win'.
Lord knows there are some bat-sh*t crazies that tend to get the press coverage but it seems that they are in the believers camp of whatever name their god goes by.
Do non-believers/atheists really want to 'win'? Win what?
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Post by chrestus on Feb 1, 2015 1:57:13 GMT
I think its win the argument. The topic itself almost becomes incidental to the argument. Its more about sleight of hand logic, little rabbit holes we get dug into, trapping people into "conundrums" that probably exist in any philosophical discussion, as far as I can tell. I think a lot of the more meaningful aspects of the discussion get buried in mounds of side-bars that just keep people running around in circles.
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Post by Jeff Truzzi on Feb 1, 2015 2:16:48 GMT
There IS no winning the argument either way, which is why the rabbit holes and conundrums come to the fore, because you CAN win & lose THOSE distractions. I participated in a number of theist/atheist groups on Facebook with participants (by and large) a lot smarter and more skilled than I am. Divinity students. Physicists. And they all end up in logic arguments about First Cause. But the side stuff gets nasty enough where people really go for the throat, and I don't mean in a logical argument - I mean in personal character assassination. People of different beliefs who became friends earlier on end up becoming enemies. And I am tired of fighting, on Facebook or here or anywhere. I thought I would get into these groups where people were really questioning their own beliefs or non-beliefs. No Everyone merely wanted to prove they were right to themselves. So you folks go on ahead, and try not to hurt each other, or anybody. Unless, or course, they ask you.
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Post by Jeff Truzzi on Feb 1, 2015 2:53:00 GMT
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Post by sticksman1 on Feb 1, 2015 14:00:57 GMT
Sorry, my "faith" in religion is gone. Causes too much hurt in the world IMO...
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Post by Nonsuch Ned on Feb 1, 2015 14:43:44 GMT
I did like that Fry answer, and was thinking of posting it myself. But only as an argument against the ignorance of the simplest form religious belief. Here's the video, directly: But I still see the same old problems with it, the same old problems of this age-old criticism. 1. That atheists argue against the simplest explanation of a creator god, and almost exclusively against the Sunday School version of the Judeo-Christian God. As if there really were "pearly gates" that you "walk" up to justify yourself. You can believe in God, or a God without believing in this Narnia level fantasy. It's a kid's story, grow up! 2. The first story in the bible explains the Christian rationalization of hardships in the world. We do not live in the Garden of Eden. Life is hard, soil must be toiled, pain must be experienced. It's kind of a weak explanation, but I do believe that if you are to believe in an afterlife that rewardfs or punishes you for your time on earth, that it is something different than an idealized or horrific version of the physical world you just dropped out of and that it is this afterlife that is the reward or next step after a painful physical existence.
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Post by Jeff Truzzi on Feb 1, 2015 15:19:41 GMT
I have a real hard time believing that a God who created everything and loves every single human being would cast them into an eternal lake of fire for not loving him sufficiently or following his (often arcane) commandments. I mean, human parents whose children have down awful, terrible things - like murder and terrorism - they may hate what their child has done, but they still love their child. I find it totally incongruous that an eternal almighty God would be LESS loving than his human creations are.
And if he IS? Well, that is not a deity worthy of my respect, much less worship.
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Post by Jeff Truzzi on Feb 1, 2015 15:23:21 GMT
Franky, I changed my belief from when I first participated in that forum religious thread. I was a non-religious theist. Now I am an atheist. And the credit (or blame) for that lies largely with Spidermage.
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Post by Nonsuch Ned on Feb 1, 2015 15:51:40 GMT
Well, you may still be stuck on the concept that a god HAS to be all-loving... or even involved in his creation at all.
It may just be a bad habit of humanity to anthropomorphize a grand creating force.
Why should a god be human? Humans are fucked up!
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Post by Jeff Truzzi on Feb 1, 2015 16:04:56 GMT
Well, you may still be stuck on the concept that a god HAS to be all-loving... or even involved in his creation at all. It may just be a bad habit of humanity to anthropomorphize a grand creating force. Why should a god be human? Humans are fucked up! A god who isn't involved in creation isn't god at all, merely a powerful space alien. Which, by the way, is EXACTLY what Jehovah and Yahweh in the Old Testament sound like. Jealous, vengeful, angry - not at all like the all-loving guy Jesus talks about. I don't believe in magic. But I do believe in Arthur C Clarke saying: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
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Post by Mr Tein on Feb 2, 2015 9:44:31 GMT
So to be clear are we discussing the validty of relegion or the belief in a diety. I have come to beleive they are quite different things...
type this into google for a very adroit dismantling of the Roma catholic church ( cant get on you tube here to get link - sorry)
stephen fry attacks roman catholic
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Post by Jeff Truzzi on Feb 2, 2015 11:49:29 GMT
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